R01: Sakhir, Bahrain
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Forum - General Chat - PRFL Cup 2019
   
Author Thread
CarlisleFrost

Registered: 19.03.2009
Location: USA
Posts: 119

14.04.2019 15:03:09
  PRFL Cup 2019
Just checked up on the groups for the Cup this year and I think I had a mini heart attack. Group 14 definitely can be described as the GROUP OF DEATH!

Ferdel, Rainer-Zufall70, Chris, FUTCHIVAI, Maverick and myself in it, along with Magne (Rookie champion from last year), Sir Jhary on a fine looking budget and GlennL (who's had a solid start to the year). With only 3 places to go through, I'm preparing for carnage!

   
GaKra Motors

Registered: 02.03.2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 873

02.11.2019 19:45:52
 
Okay, I know it's Halloween and all, but you guys really give me the creeps.

Now changes of rules don't scare me. I will compete next season no matter what the rules will be and will fight fair but hard for these trophies and make sure no one will get an easy win against me. For this I won't be shy to use the secrecy option if necessary.

The thought that there might be some races that won't be part of this game saddens me a bit because these races won't be as exciting as they could be but of course I understand why this might be necessary. If that silly idea of reverse starting order hadn't been abandoned already, I could even help with a proposal on which races to exclude.

Now we come to the really creepy stuff... the thought of Kat, Frosti and/or Maverick not to compete anymore in next season. If there is any way to avoid this, I will agree... even if selections of teams were completely hidden til closing of pit lane, which I would be strongly against under other circumstances. But then Maverick seems to have found a solution already we could all live with. I like the fact that we can see opponent's selections because we get to consider a lot of strategic options that way, and I like that there is a secrecy option in case we want to protect ourselves against curious eyes, but I think this should have a price so the decision to use it or not will be another strategic decision.

I don't even want to think about a potential end of this wonderful game. A nightmare not to wake up from in March... oh man, I really hope this can be avoided. I am very sorry about the necessary server change which probably consists of a lot of annoying work. I mean, I don't have a clue about it, obviously... but I know this game has been at the brink of extinction at least once, so I still have hope it will survive this time, too. I have had a lot of fun playing PFRL for almost 14 seasons so far, so thank you for having made this possible, and for all the time and great work you put into this game already, Maverick. I sure hope this won't end anytime soon, but I will respect whatever decision you will take.

   
Daijhi

Registered: 16.03.2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 28

02.11.2019 19:16:29
Helping Maverick 
Maybe us established players can contribute some sponsorship to help with the server change?

   
Daijhi

Registered: 16.03.2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 28

02.11.2019 19:13:23
Cup Commentary 
Thanks Carlisle for a great review of the cup.

To lose the quarter by one point was indeed hard...but to get the boot with the second highest score was exasperating. Mubbins is a mighty opponent but my money is on Maverick to win the trophy.

   
Daijhi2

Registered: 25.03.2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 10

02.11.2019 19:05:53
2020 
Thank you Maverick for everything you do.

I think the game works pretty well as it is and to lessen your relentless work maybe we could just go unchanged for a couple of seasons.

If you decide to cut back the races maybe we could lose those races which come a week after the previous race. Two weekends in a row can be demanding on other commitments.

Even so if it's less work I would just leave everything as it is - like a farmhouse; the work is never finished

   
KatzevonSwish

Registered: 07.03.2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 56

29.10.2019 06:34:52
If 2020 happens... 
That sounds like an excellent compromise by modifying existing "secret" function.

   
Maverick

Registered: 10.01.2004
Location: Austria
Posts: 1058

28.10.2019 23:13:21
 
First of all, it's not clear yet, if there will be another season. I have to set up a new web server. This
costs a lot of time and will be a technical challenge.

If it continues...
The 2020 Formula 1 race calendar 2020 has 22 races. That is too much for me. I seriously consider limiting the PFRL race calendar to 19 races. That means that not all Formula 1 races would be part of the PFRL race calendar anymore.

I also think about retiring my teams to focus exclusively on the game administration.

Regarding to open line-ups:
I do not have time to make major changes to the gameplay. But I could imagine adapting the existing feature 'Hide team components' in that way:
- Available for all players (Amateur, Pro and Expert)
- Only temporary costs for activation (repayment after the race by increase of cash balance)
- The more often the useage, the higher the temporary costs for activation
- 1-3 times: 1 M.
- 4-6 times: 2 M.
- 7-9 times: 3 M., and so on

Maverick

   
KatzevonSwish

Registered: 07.03.2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 56

28.10.2019 01:12:38
Two counterarguments 
Carlisle, thanks for that response. I'd like to offer two counterarguments to your objection to the suggestion of completely hiding components. In regards to newer players learning, they can do so equally well by seeing which components established players chose after the event. As to the tactical element introduced by seeing an opponent's selections and finding counter-strategies. I see your point, but note this is always asymmetric based on who chooses to wait longer to set their line-up. Maverick has suggested in the past that those who show the most commitment to the game by losing sleep should be rewarded. To me this should be a math problem, not an endurance test. But more importantly, we already have information about our opponent's line-up based on their current line-up and the limited number of component swaps. To me it is far more interesting and tactically dynamic to predict how our opponent might change their line-up and respond to that, rather than simply sitting in front of a computer for hours waiting until we know their decisions.

   
CarlisleFrost

Registered: 19.03.2009
Location: USA
Posts: 119

28.10.2019 00:40:05
 
@KatzevonSwish, you're not the only one considering their future/retirement (I'm seriously considering my future and will probably decide based on the direction things go/changes that are made before next season). That said, I think totally hiding selections is a step too far, as seeing others' choices and trying to legitimately beat them/do better is good for the game and to help newer players learn. Currently, my opinion is to hide all qualification predictions and fastest lap predictions for ALL teams (not just Cup),as that should at least mean it'd be impossible to know who'd win a match-up etc before qualification even begins. I've been pretty disgusted by the use of the copy-ERS tactic, particularly this season, where it feels like it has been used more widely than before, and by some reputable names too. It has to stop.

Moving to the Cup review though and it was tight matches on the menu, almost all across the board...

- Alpha908 continued their giant-killing run with a super tight win over 8th seed, KatzevonSwish. Just one point between them. Ultimately, it was decided by Alpha908 using 5 points or ERS vs 1 by KatzevonSwish. 1 more point by the latter and the result would have been different, so they'll be regretting that choice.

- Solid win for Maverick in their match against 5th seeded voimanen, though copying their entire team and predictions apart from the engine is another poor show in my eyes (massive respect for what they do with the site and for their achievements, but I stand for fair, sporting competition and feel it'd be a travesty if they lift the Cup this year after all the underhanded tactics). They'll be favourite in their semi-final due to advantages on both budget and ERS. Alpha908, if you read this, I recommend using secrecy!

- Into the second half and it was another close one. GaKra Motors took a 3 point win over roger alford, ending their brave fight in the competition. 10 points up after qualifying, it looked like it'd be a comfortable win, though I'm sure GaKra was feeling nervous through the race! Congrats on the win!

- It's going to be a big semi final, as meeting them is Schumacher, who scraped past Daijhi by one point. Daijhi led after qualifying, but a strong race and having more ERS swung it for Schumacher, who I believe is still competing for every trophy on offer. Huge kudos to be competing so strongly on every front and bouncing back after a challenging 2018.

No rest for anyone, as the semis are next weekend.

   
KatzevonSwish

Registered: 07.03.2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 56

27.10.2019 22:49:10
open line-ups 
I figured I'd post this here since historically this topic has most often cropped up in the context of the Cup and the notorious debate over copy-(K)ERSing. I'm also aware it's a debate we've had before, but I think it deserves repeating.

I love this game. It has given me a decade of enjoyment during a period when the "real" F1 has been something of a disappointment as a Ferrari fan. However, I have always felt that the public visibility of line-ups has been a defect. I am aware of no other fantasy game in which multiple competitors can use the same components/players in which those selections are visible before the database closes. Admittedly the reasons for that vary. In large-field DFS tournaments, for example, the primary issue is that to win you typically need at least one contrarian pick. But the principle is nonetheless universal outside of PFRL. Selections are hidden until no further changes can be made.

As mentioned above, the PFRL Cup has a particular quirk in this regard thanks to copy-ERSing. Please ask yourselves this. It's, say, your second year in the game. You have got through the group stage of the Cup, which is an achievement in itself. You are still competing at the "PRO" level. You find that you get eliminated early in the knock-out round because someone has done something REALLY clever by copying your line-up and using one click of ERS. How would you feel? I guess some people might chalk it up to experience and move on. And some might realize there is a flaw in the game and quit the following season. It's also, IMO, a little silly to be playing chicken with your internet connection making a last minute change. We're surely not playing this to see who can hit "update" as close to database closing as possible.

It's also the case that the Cup is one small element of all the marvelous sub-competitions Maverick has provided for us, so maybe this issue isn't worth worrying about? That has been the attitude I have taken until last year. For several seasons prior to this I organized the "Motorsports Mayhem" league here. As usual, the league is in the top five of the rankings this season trailing Heinz Prueller Tribute by the customary 100 points. The league is made up of members from a motorsports forum. Last season it was noted that one of our members was suddenly performing much better. He explained he left his picks until the last minute and copied those of one of the established stars. Of note is that this individual chose not to compete this year, as did a couple of other forum members.

Being something of a data geek, I dug into the world ranking where I found other examples of competitors suddenly getting much better. Now I have no doubt that in some cases it's because they'd worked on it and got more skilled, plus any game like this has a significant element of variance. But when you find competitors who clearly have a very limited understanding of the intricacies of the game (why, for example, would you charge ERS yet never employ the "overtake" function), but who manage to make immaculate picks week after week, you begin to suspect the integrity of the game is being hopelessly compromised by open line-ups.

Anyway, it's an old debate. I've had it offline with Mav in the past and he has made his position quite clear. Given all the work he has put into this game and the 100s of hours of enjoyment I've obtained from it, I thank him warmly and sincerely for his efforts. But I've decided I no longer wish to participate under such rules, so this will be my last season.

Thanks and good luck ~ KvS

   
GaKra Motors

Registered: 02.03.2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 873

27.10.2019 22:27:50
 
Oh wow, Cup duel is going to be really tight now... I originally recharged my ERS sacrificing 4 points because I thought I would need it in case both Schumacher and me would advance. Then I saw they and also Daijhi both discharge ERS and decided to lower my risk and sacrifice just 2 points for ERS in last minute before the deadline. Now it would be really nice if that decision saved me... which would be the case if I won by a 1 or 2 point margin...

   
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